NS4 Aux KB Control functions

[cgrafx]

Midi doesn't have any idea what a triple sensor is. Its just "Note On" and "Note Off"

Multiple key sensors (dual or triple) are only processed locally in the keyboard in which they are installed.

That’s not correct, midi can be used to transfer triple sensor information in a simple way. Kawai MP11, VPC1 and some other midi controllers have the availability implemted, Pianoteq accepts such input. This have been discussed before, actually I sent a midi file from my MP11 to Nord tech support a couple of years ago since they originally thought the NS3 should handle it. They promised to look on the implementation in future updates but it still does not work with NS4 when i tested it. Triple sensor retriggering from the second sensor is implemented by sending a new Note On before Note Off. So retriggering a note once without cutting the first is done by sending Note On, Note On, Note Off, Note Off. See also:
https://forums.pianoworld.com/ubbthread ... nefit.html

This is NOT MIDI triple sensor information, Its a hack to try and interpret a sequence of "Note On" and/or "Note Off" as some coded message, but it is NOT a part of the MIDI standard or recognized as a standard MIDI command.

If some companies choose to code their keyboards to transmit or receive these specific ON/OFF messages thats great, but since there is NO standard, there is no way to guarantee they will work across different MIDI devices, or will even continue to work in the future.

[Valpurgis]

Basically, the question is, if you use a triple sensor midi controller with weighted action to control the pianos in the semi weighted ns4 compact, do you lose anything sound wise? Obviously the keyboard feel will be different but does the Nord treat incoming triple sensor note information differently than internally created note information?

Yes you generally loose the retriggered notes which is «picked up» when lifting the key just above the middle sensor and not above the top sensor. The action feels more sluggish for quick repeats. Its like playing a double sensor digital piano vs a triple sensor. If I play my NS4SW via midi from my Kawai MP11 I can easily make several repeats on the Kawai that just will be heard on the Kawai as the NS4 will not react on consecutive Note On’s without Not Off per Note On.

[Valpurgis]

Midi doesn't have any idea what a triple sensor is. Its just "Note On" and "Note Off"

Multiple key sensors (dual or triple) are only processed locally in the keyboard in which they are installed.

That’s not correct, midi can be used to transfer triple sensor information in a simple way. Kawai MP11, VPC1 and some other midi controllers have the availability implemted, Pianoteq accepts such input. This have been discussed before, actually I sent a midi file from my MP11 to Nord tech support a couple of years ago since they originally thought the NS3 should handle it. They promised to look on the implementation in future updates but it still does not work with NS4 when i tested it. Triple sensor retriggering from the second sensor is implemented by sending a new Note On before Note Off. So retriggering a note once without cutting the first is done by sending Note On, Note On, Note Off, Note Off. See also:
https://forums.pianoworld.com/ubbthread ... nefit.html

This is NOT MIDI triple sensor information, Its a hack to try and interpret a sequence of "Note On" and/or "Note Off" as some coded message, but it is NOT a part of the MIDI standard or recognized as a standard MIDI command.

If some companies choose to code their keyboards to transmit or receive these specific ON/OFF messages thats great, but since there is NO standard, there is no way to guarantee they will work across different MIDI devices, or will even continue to work in the future.

No hack, no specific ON/OFF messages. Each Note On is acknowledged by a Note Off. Just a clever use of standard midi by sending the Note Offs together when the key finally is released.Thats why Nord thought it should work.

[cgrafx]

No hack, no specific ON/OFF messages. Each Note On is acknowledged by a Note Off. Just a clever use of standard midi by sending the Note Offs together when the key finally is released.Thats why Nord thought it should work.

It is a hack because it is NOT a part of the MIDI standard. There isn't a specific MIDI data code for sensor information and there isn't a specific MIDI sequence that says if you receive some order of MIDI On/Off commands that you should treat this in a specific way, its entirely random and only loosely supported by a few vendors.

[Valpurgis]

OK. If you say so

[mtier0067]

Wow this has gotten a bit complex for the novice midi user. I appreciate the detail though! Thanks for your thoughts here ))

If I think about this in a very simple way, based on how it needs to work logistically with the action of a piano it’s trying to recreate, there’s probably 3 sensors (one near the top, one near the bottom, and one at the keystop bottom) that can all sense note on and note off and transmit velocity in a triple sensor keybed. The bottom sensor can also sense and transmit after touch into.

If you play very lightly and only hit the middle sensor (without the bottom keystop sensor being triggered) you get a note on. You get a note off when the key is fully released past the middle and/or first sensor. If you play harder, the bottom sensor and middle sensor both read a note on. When the key is released past the bottom or middle sensor, it triggers a note off so the key can be depressed again from “half” or full action and trigger a new note on message.

If I think about it very simply that’s how I would understand the midi implementation works. The main issue is wondering how the user selectable keyboard velocity curve alters this standard logic. Am I way off??

[mtier0067]

I play my NS4SW via midi from my Kawai MP11 I can easily make several repeats on the Kawai that just will be heard on the Kawai as the NS4 will not react on consecutive Note On’s without Not Off per Note On.

This is what I was really wondering by seeding this question… so a triple sensor midi keyboard will not transmit triple sensor note on/off data to the NS4sw and therefore will feel sluggish regardless of it the weighted keyboard controller has double or triple sensors. Correct?

[Valpurgis]

Sorry, but I maybe explained it in a not so good way. The problem is that the Kawai MP11 sends «triple sensor» information, but the NS4sw does not react on it. The result is nevertheless identical. Since this discussion seem provocating for some dont hesitate to PM me to discuss/explain further.

[cgrafx]

Once again, the triple sensor keyboard does not send triple sensor data it sends "Midi-on", Midi-Off" and "Velocity" messages.

When those messages get sent, in relation to how you press and release the keys, will be different on a triple sensor keyboard vs a dual or single-sensor keyboard. How the keyboard calculates velocity will also be different on single, dual, and triple sensor keyboards, and may also be affected by velocity mapping.

How other keyboards interpret a string of MIDI-ON, MIDI-ON, MIDI-OFF or other configurations of non-sequential ON/OFF messages will be completely dependent on how those particular keyboards have been programmed to handle odd edge-cases or other unexpected sequences.

So the Kawai MP11 will definitely send MIDI messages that are influenced by the triple sensors, but the Nord will not be able to interpret those MIDI commands in as nuanced a way as it can from its own triple-sensor keybed.

As a matter of fact, recording a MIDI track from a Nord keyboard and then using it to play the Nord, will NOT result in the same performance as originally played for the same reason (nuanced playing data is lost when translating from the internal triple sensor data to MIDI)

[mtier0067]

Okay. We’ve gone a little bit off track which has been very informative and interesting but I don’t think we’ve answered the question that pertains to this topic/threads original title. Using the Aux KB feature on the NS4 with a weighted midi controller.

How does the NS4 interpret incoming triple sensor data from a Studiologic SL73? How about from the Kawai MP11?

There’s a lot of answers that say something to the extent “the NS4 does not interpret everything that could be sent by a triple sensor keybed” - but what specifically does the NS4 interpret and listen for at the Midi in port? I feel like this could be a Nord/Clavia question instead of something that gets hashed out here… I’m sorry if I’ve temporarily derailed this thread but I think it’s really important to understand how the Nord interprets and listens to incoming midi note on/off relative to its piano library and to some extent its organ engine (Hammond xk5 and viscount legend soul kbs have 9 sensors) I think there are a lot of people who either buy a compact or full size NS4 and control it from an external keyboard (hence the functionality of Aux KB mode…) - I’d like to know how the Nord reacts to those incoming midi messages in detail!