NS4 Aux KB Control functions

[FZiegler]

This conversation is a bit funny to me. You, mtier0067 keep talking about transmitted triple sensor data while there is really no such thing.

Wow this has gotten a bit complex for the novice midi user. I appreciate the detail though! Thanks for your thoughts here ))

If I think about this in a very simple way, based on how it needs to work logistically with the action of a piano it’s trying to recreate, there’s probably 3 sensors (one near the top, one near the bottom, and one at the keystop bottom) that can all sense note on and note off and transmit velocity in a triple sensor keybed. The bottom sensor can also sense and transmit after touch into.

I'm not a piano tech, but I always understood it that way:
1) Every key has its first sensor which only senses on/off - like the other two. When playing piano, activating sensor 1 will lead to nothing: no note on at all. Instead, it will start couting the time until sensor 3 is activated; from that time lapse, the velocity is calculated and will be sent to the internal sound generator and to MIDI (note-on + velocity). If sensor 1 was on and will now be switched off, the instrument may send a note-off command to the internal sound generator and to MIDI; it may even send a note-off velocity (calculated from the time lapse between sensor 3 and sensor 1) which may play a role for some types of sounds. If you play organ and have set note-on to sensor 1, you will get a simple note-on command from sensor 1 without any velocity information (as there is none); as I learned, there aren't many keyboards that are able to send note-on from sensor 1. The Stage will do it at least internally - no idea if it does it for external use as well.

2) So, sensor 3 will help the keyboard to calculate velocity information and to send a note-on command with velocity; but sensor 3 isn't able to send any note command on its own - it's always interpreted by the keyboard logic. Only sensor 1 and sensor 3 together will help sending a note-on command with velocity.

3) The same is true for sensor 2 and sensor 3 - they will be used to send note-ons for fast repetition; there may be a use for sensor 2 to help getting more precise information about normal velocity, but I never heard of some information about that. It just might be the case as some people feel a better velocity response from triple sensor keyboards - including me. To get a note-off command from a repeated tone, you should wait until sensor 1 will be switched off - but that's only an assumption from my side as it would be the same behaviour as the damper does on an acoustic piano. If there is a sensor 2 switched off and switched on again with no change at sensor 1, we have a fast repetition (from double escapement on an acoustic piano) - and if that happens, keyboards behave differently: either they send note-off and note-on (Nord) or the just send another note-on and will remember to later-on send note-off twice (Kawai).

Until now, I haven't had any annoyance with my Kawai VPC-1 on a Nord Stage 3. So no idea if that combination is a problem or not.

Channel aftertouch information has nothing to do with the three key sensors: It comes from a ribbon below all keys together.

Just to summarise: For a piano note-on command, you need 2 sensors plus a calculator; in case of a triple sensor action, the same is true for fast repetition commands. But as the time is calculated between different sensors, the same time lapse will obviously not be able to lead to the same MIDI velocity value. It's not the force that is sensed - it's only the time between two on/off sensors. And only in the special case of an organ keyboard, a single sensor will suffice to send note-on and off directly (with no velocity or a standard velocity of 100 or the like attributed by the OS).

In my eyes, velocity isn't the biggest issue for interpreting fast repetition data: It's the question if there is a damper involved in between the two notes or not - and in that case, Nord keyboards only seem to be able to interpret short moments between a note-off and a note-on command as a fast repetion without a damper in-between whereas a skilled piano player may also make longer pauses between two tones without fully releasing a key (so, on an acoustic piano, there wouldn't be a damper involved).

[mtier0067]

Okay… there’s just no way to explain it otherwise. I understand there’s no “triple sensor midi data” the 3 sensors are simply transmitting note on/off and velocity. Good point that after touch is a ribbon. Forgot about that! From the responses here, it seems that each triple sensor keyboard will feel slightly different than another when triggering the NS4 depending on how it transmits note on/off and velocity and how many sensors are transmitting this data but also based on how the Nord translates these external midi messages to trigger the internal sound engine. No one knows what exactly the Nord translates and how that affects the internal sound engine when triggered from an external keyboard. That’s the question…

The Stage will do it at least internally - no idea if it does it for external use as well.

…Nord keyboards only seem to be able to interpret short moments between a note-off and a note-on command as a fast repetion without a damper in-between…

That’s ^^^ important info and the feedback I’m hoping to get from users. Good to know the VPC feels good triggering it. I’ve been wondering if another midi controller would feel better than the SL73 solely depending on its triggering (keyboard action not included) basically,

1. choose your preferred keybed feel (irregardless of # of sensors or types of note on/off information it sends) and it’ll queue the Nord the same way.
Or
2. certain external midi keybed actions affect the Nord triggering of its internal engine indeed does make a difference and the closest to playing the Nord HAStage 4 88 from the internal Nord keybed is using a _____________ as the aux KB.

[Valpurgis]

Triple sensor design is really a way to help quick repeats on a digital piano and differs from a standard two sensor keybed like how the action of a grand piano versus an upright piano.
https://msteinert.com/blog/grand-vs-upr ... QX_HuqDPdv

I have already tried to explain how this is done via midi with repeated Note On messages for low repeats above the second(middle sensor) and wait to send Note Off until key is released above the top sensor. This works very well when using my MP11 to play Pianoteq but does not work ehen playing the NS4sw. I discussed this in detail with Nord some time ago and they asked me to send a midi file from my MP11 so they could verify. They came back and said they would look further into it.

[mtier0067]

So it sounds like the only way to get the full experience is to play the piano section from the keybed of a ns488ha or a ns473ha. Too bad the sample/model doesn’t behave like Pianoteq or similar.

[Schorsch]

So it sounds like the only way to get the full experience is to play the piano section from the keybed of a ns488ha or a ns473ha. Too bad the sample/model doesn’t behave like Pianoteq or similar.

Well, it apparently does when an internal keybed with triple sensors is used, just not when an external keyboard is transmitting the repeated note on messages via midi. It’s at least a positive signal that they are looking into what Valpurgis sent them, means there might be something in the interpretation of external midi signals that could be fixed eventually. I just hope that this will be fixed not just on the NS4 but also on the NS3, would be great to use a triple sensor midi keyboard with the NS3C and get the fast repetition option from there

[mtier0067]

I wouldn’t get my hopes up. If anything they’ll make a stage 4 EX that will require us to buy a new keyboard to get these and most other features.

Nord stage is the best keyboard ever in my humble opinion but what you get is what you get when it’s released is for the most part what you get. There’s little incremental updates but it seems like the architecture of the stage is not that flexible to be updated via os, it is what it is

[Satomy]

Hi everyone, I need help. I see that someone has found some solutions for midi cc reception problems in aux Kb mode, have you really solved it?
Here is my problem: connecting NS4 to a midi master (novation impulse 49) in aux KB mode, some midi cc have never worked, NS4 does not receive the following midi cc of "modulation wheel", "aftertouch", (they never worked in aux KB mode), "resonance", "cutoff" (even setting the midi cc parameters described, they never worked in aux KB mode, indeed, I really believe that the parameters described for the reception of these midi cc, correspond to other midi cc, that is, they act in midi cc not corresponding to those intended); while other midi cc such as: "on/off vib/chorus", "on/off percussion", which worked up to OS 0.98, have not worked since the next version, why? I think I understood that new parameters have been set, midi nrpn, parameters that I was unable to set on my Novation impulse 49 midi master keyboard. But I wonder, why change a parameter that previously worked very well? I have always used the aux KB mode with Nord Stage 2ex and then with Nord stage 3, it has always been one of my Live configurations and everything has always worked without problems, or in any case if there were any, they were solved in a few months and definitively. I wrote to Nord for the umpteenth time, hoping that they can solve or help me. While waiting for their response, I also ask you for help, maybe it's me who can't configure properly, I've really tried everything, but the midi cc listed above continue not to be received via the aux KB mode.
Advice is welcome, thanks.
I apologize for my incorrect English

[Ecaroh]

I wrote to Nord for the umpteenth time, hoping that they can solve or help me. While waiting for their response, I also ask you for help, maybe it's me who can't configure properly, I've really tried everything, but the midi cc listed above continue not to be received via the aux KB mode.
Advice is welcome, thanks.
I apologize for my incorrect English

Hi Satomy! Sorry to say but NO, it’s not you. NS4’s MIDI is buggy as hell still after years of releasing. Since May 2023 I’ve sent many reports of midi issues to Nord and they’ve promised to check them and fix them soon (?). 6 months ago I gave up and my NS4 is just a pricey furniture in my cellar. Let’s see if a miracle happens some day. I wouldn't hold my breath for that.