(IE) Monitoring in a big band without sound guy

[FZiegler]

Being a pianist in a 'modern' big band for 3 years now doesn't make me an experienced stage technician. From the beginning, I was confused about the sound situation in rehearsals and on stage.

I'm finally determined to get custom molded IEMs to solve multiple problems at once: suffering particularly from the trumpets' output (~ 6 tp, 4 tb, 8 sax, trumpets being much worse than drums/perc in my ears), not hearing myself at the same time and not getting along with standard in-ear phones at all.

My first attempt was ear protectors at least for one ear. But of course, they didn't help to hear myself through the main amplification (keys, singers, guit, bass). I soon stopped using them. Then I added a pair of QSC K8.2s for monitoring just my own signal which made it somewhat better. But as soon as all that brass gets off, all I hear with my tinnitus-driven ears sounds like distorted and highly fake sound: I definitely need a lower sound level to be able to hear what others hear.

We usually have our own amplification for rehearsals (not always set up properly) and gigs. We run it through a new analog mixer (not that many AUXes). Up to now, I simply split my signal in a DI box, gave it to FoH and on my monitors - both in stereo.

How would you change that setting to get my IEMs into it? There is no way to go for a silent stage, of course. We will never have every section miked on rehearsals, I suppose. We do mike everything on gigs - but with no special sound guy (only the director will dial around some knobs if he's not happy with what he can hear downstage). And the points I'm thinking about is: How can I hear myself and the rest of the band, how can I control both levels on my own, and how can the band hear me? Guit and Bass have their own stage monitors, and I'm still thinking of setting up my QSCs even if they won't be monitors for me any more but for the band.

The IEMs I'm going for will probably not have an 'ambient option' - too expensive and not recommended by everyone. I'm looking forward to getting -18~-24 dB from the ambience sound through custom molded IEMs (either from Fischer Amps or Ultimate Ears, that's what I get most easily in my region). That might be rather quiet.

I'll probably need a small mixer to get my signal + a miked signal from the acoustic sound of the band including what's being talked (a special mike on my own only for that purpose). I'll have to discuss with our band leader if I still should set up monitor boxes for the piano/synth sound, so that the other band members will hear me - they got used to it. But regardless of whether I take the basic mix from an ambience microphone or from FoH, I would still want to hear my own signal in a clear way - not splashed and whisked together to a muddy signal through a direct and highly indirect path... And if I take the mix from FoH, I'll probably only get a mono signal - even if I like to hear myself in stereo. But I don't see a way to control my own signal level without mixing myself into that monitor sum if I'm already part of it?

So I'm still confused about the way I'll get a clear signal as much in rehearsal as in stage conditions. Any comments from somebody a little experienced in mixing big band sound?

Thank you in advance!

[M1tsos]

Hello my friend.. i wish i was closer to your place i could fix all the problems you have.. i am sound engineer for years and i love this job.. first of all you should try fix your position in the band and stay behind the brass.. second you need a good pair of iems i advice for 64audio or jhaudio instead of ultimate.. or if you want to go cheaper try universal westone um pro 30 or um pro 50 it will do the job believe me..

Third you need a small mixer with 8 or 12 channels or even more Depending ofc on how many instruments you want in your iems just send from the main mixer through aux to your mixer the lines with instruments you want and plug in your iems in your mixer and try mix the channels with your instruments..

Your job could be easier if you had a midas m32 for your whole band as a main mixer with behringer p16 as iem mixer.

Anyway i can help you more with the distances etc if you could show me a photo of the place and distances of the whole band

Regards

[FZiegler]

I didn't think you might need the band setting when talking about IEMs. I'm not fully sure, but it might be something like that at the moment - mostly rehearsals, only had 1 or 2 performances the last two years.

The placement has changed quite a bit during this time. And might not be perfect yet.

Dotted lines for the elements we only have during performances:

00 Setting-2021.png (136.31 KiB) Viewed 6515 times

[FZiegler]

Concerning the IEMs you recommended: It's not the first time you are praising the 64 audio and jhaudio. I already looked them up and they look fancy and super light. But sorry, this is not for me - I'm not a pro but only a hobbyist; and don't want to pay more for IEMs than for a pair of the QSC K8.2s I have as monitor boxes (I paid around 1300 EUR). I tested the Ultimate Ears pro UE-7 and I liked them - they even fitted into my ears and didn't hurt too much; but I'm going to look into the small Fischer Amps in-house series which is meant for amateur use. That way, I hope to get custom molded IEMs for around 650 EUR; we'll see.

I don't know why the big T doesn't sell Westone any more - but I don't think I can get custom ear moulds for them anyway. So they are off the race.

Besides: part of the discussion about different IEM models is done in this thread: post151127.html#p151127. Now, I want to get clear about the best signal chain.

[M1tsos]

Concerning the IEMs you recommended: It's not the first time you are praising the 64 audio and jhaudio. I already looked them up and they look fancy and super light. But sorry, this is not for me - I'm not a pro but only a hobbyist; and don't want to pay more for IEMs than for a pair of the QSC K8.2s I have as monitor boxes (I paid around 1300 EUR). I tested the Ultimate Ears pro UE-7 and I liked them - they even fitted into my ears and didn't hurt too much; but I'm going to look into the small Fischer Amps in-house series which is meant for amateur use. That way, I hope to get custom molded IEMs for around 650 EUR; we'll see.

I don't know why the big T doesn't sell Westone any more - but I don't think I can get custom ear moulds for them anyway. So they are off the race.

Besides: part of the discussion about different IEM models is done in this thread: post151127.html#p151127. Now, I want to get clear about the best signal chain.

My friend the way you are set up the whole band is ok.. i would change the position of the back tp’s and i would move there the drums bass and keyboards plus guitar and all the brass in front of them .. in this way it will reduce the amount of db you get ..

Doesnt the drums make 2 much noise near you?? I believe in the way you are it should change the percussions with the drums.. drummer always should be next to bass player..

As for the westones you can get them customised for your ears with around 200 or 300 euros more.. which means they get around 700 euros for um pro 30 and around 900 for um pro 50.. i wouldnt pay that much for westones anyway so i would go for the universals which they have many sizes of foam and silicones.. about the ue-7 pro they are very old technoloGy its 2005 which means 17 years old in ears.. they have just 3 drivers and 2 way crossover and they cost 1000 euros on thomann… you can buy better in ears with 1000 euros.. at least 3 way crossover and 5 drivers per ear.. the good part on the ue 7 is the sensitivity at 124db/mw and impedance of 17.5 ohm which means they will have huge amount of volume in any mixer or headphone amp and their sound results are very decent.

Anyway in case you decide to go for 64audio i can give you the phone of your german distributor which i got very good connection since i bought from them my 64s

[FZiegler]

Hey, I'm the keyboarder of that band, not the band leader. I already announced that I'm gonna say goodbye to decibels...

Interestingly, the drums (2 of the 3 drummers are used to play rock only) are less uncomfortable to me than the trumpets. But of course, they do tire the hearing.

Am I allowed to renew my question? How would you setup the monitor routing for me and the other band members? We do not have a digital mixer and won't get one within the next 2 years, I think. (I was already considering if it would be of any use to buy a Midas/Behringer X18 myself for the monitor routing. But I don't think so: g, dr, b and voc will always go into FoH and won't be available one by one for me).

That's why my idea was: take the same summed up monitor mix from FoH as anybody else gets (oh, in the sketch I forgot the other monitors we have while performing!) and directly add some piano signal (+ an ambiance mike amoung the unamped instruments during rehearsals - in their center or in front of them all or in front of me?). Good idea?

And what do you think about still setting up extra piano monitors for the stage sound if b and g have them, too, and brass will provide enough sound anyway? I'd like everybody to be able to hear me - including the vocalists. In the end, I'll have to test myself - but would be nice if I had some clues in advance.

[analogika]

Without a dedicated mix for your monitor sound, you won't have anything near "ideal", but it sounds like you're not too picky, as long as you can hear what's going on.

So, barring the ideal — the Midas/Behringer suggestion or equivalent (like the Allen & Heath Qu-Pac), which would allow each section to freely adjust their own monitor mix using the smartphone/iPad remote apps available, the next best thing will indeed be a small submixer for your spot, taking the throughs from your DI into two channels and the full monitor mix into two others and mixing them together so that you have the best balance.

Whatever in-ears you get will get more or less bleed from the ambient noise on stage, so that will figure into the balance.

You should be able to get something pragmatic and workable, if not really hi-fi listening, and it will be easier on your ears than blasting them with monitor speakers OVER the already terrific noise of the horn section and drums.

As to whether the other musicians need your speakers on stage — they may just need more of you on the other monitors.

I don't think there's anything but to try it and see.

[M1tsos]

Well my friend since you use analog mixer for foh then i guess that mixer wont have more than 6 or 8 aux… So the best should be using a 2 channels Aux ( if possible.. else go 1 mono aux ) make them hard pan left right and send there a little bit of everything and send more of your keyboard so you can hear yourself first in the band..

Even if you buy any digital mixer it wont help you that much if you cant have many aux sends from the main mixer to yours.. the right thing to do is to take every one in different channels in your mixer.. for example a stereo channel for drums or even 1 channel for every drum piece i usually use 8 mics for drumset . a stereo for percussions 1 channel bass a stereo for keys a stereo guitar a stereo for all brass etc some monos for vocals.. all these are already over 12 channels so since the main mixer wont have so many aux to send it will be not worth to get a behringer x18 for your in ears… ofc a behringer x18 or a midas mr12 or 18 or my beloved soundcraft ui24r .. are very good mixers for many situations.. they are light weight. They dont have knobs so you dont have to care much for dust etc .. they have many inputs and outputs.. full parametric eqs with Q and graphic eqs also . They also have 4 fx machines on board.. in the behringer or midas case you have also ultranet for p16 use.. anyway since this analogue mixer is the main source for your in ears i would go with a small analogue or even digital mixer like behringer x12 or midas mr12 and use it as my in ear mixer

A good solution for everyone to make a good mix in their monitors is to record multytrack and play back.. or if they have time to play many times some songs with much of dynamic range piano forte etc for soundcheck and go to their monitor and ask them what they want more or less.. which means you will have to deal with everyone of them the mix they want in their monitor and since they are many musicians there it wont be easy to make everyone happy there…

Sorry for my bad english i hope you get my meaning…

[Rusty Mike]

Not that this is going to matter much, but the problem is the band. 18 horns are 5 too many. It should be 4 trumpets, 4 trombones (3 tenors and a bass), 2 altos, 2 tenors and a baritone sax. No wonder you can’t hear yourself!

Most of the horn players I play with across 2 big bands have issues with dynamics. The trumpets as a section are especially guilty of playing too loud - they’re like the guitar players of big band LOL. Most have no concept of playing under a soloist and just compete with each other. Many don’t care what you think.

Dynamics is one of the hardest things for a big band to control. Imagine how battered your audience feels after a few songs.

I obviously don’t know the caliber of the musicians you are working with. I would suggest, however, that you attempt to work with them on volume control, as this will improve the quality of the band. Also talk to the band leader about losing a few seats if it is possible.

I apologize as I know this does not help your IEM inquiry, but it’s a bit of a soft spot for me. Volume battles is a primary reason I do not play rock music. And I work a lot with my big bands on volume control and dynamics, sometimes it even works.

[FZiegler]

Thanks a lot for your input! True, I'm not that picky in this point - in others, I am. True, the band would be easier to handle with less people. True, I had hoped for a digital mixer - if I remember right, there are 2 or 4 Auxes. And true, yours are important comments.

Nothing to apologise for, R.M.: It was quite fun reading your comment - and convinced me to mention dynamics more often as side notes coming from the eventually picky keyboarder, as the band leader alone won't cope with it.

As a student, I played in a school big band with around 30 people. So I always thought a big band needed to be a really big thing. And was only dreaming of some 12-man outfit. We'll see what dreams get into.